Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:11 AM
To: Russell, Dave
Subject: FW: Medal of Honor recipient Bud Day Talks of Torture]
I am forwarding this to you FYI because I know it would never pass muster for printing in a newspaper. The credentiials of those involved are impeccable. BG Clements...a P 38 Pilot in WWII and an since, a highly renowned oral surgeon. Colonel Bud Day of course is in a class of his own.
Take in some words from a true warrior.
Bob
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From:
To:
Subject: Medal of Honor recipient Bud Day Talks of Torture]
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:49:18 +0000
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:21:22 -0400, Donald Dorfman Colonel USAF ret forwarded
statements from Colonel Bud Day USAF ret MOH regarding his torture by the North
Vietnamese while a POW (Prisoner of War)
Comment"
Colonel Dorfman is an attorney, former USAF JAG, and practices criminal law in
Sacramento, CA
chk6
bob
.............................
The prelude to the "response" below, from Colonel Bud Day, Medal of Honor
recipient - prisoner of war survivor - reads
"I didn't expect to be reminded of my treatment some 36 years ago on this
holiday weekend but our politicians find it worthy to ignore what some have
tried to recount to them, who have actually been there.."
I got shot down over N Vietnam in 1967...a sq commander.
After I returned in 1973... I published 2 books that dealt a lot with "real
torture" in Hanoi . Our make believe president is branding our country as a
bunch of torturers when he has no idea what torture is.
As for me. Put thru a mock execution because I would not respond...pistol
whipped on the head...same event... Couple of days later...hung by my feet all
day. I escaped and got recaptured a couple of weeks later... I got shot and
recaptured. Being shot was OK...what happened after was not.
They marched me to Vinh... put me in the rope trick. lt almost pulled my arms
out of the sockets. Beat me on the head with a little wooden rod until my eyes
were swelled shut, and my unshot, unbroken hand a pulp.
Next day hung me by the arms...rebroke my right wrist...wiped out the nerves in
my arms that control the hands. Rolled my fingers up into a ball. Only left the
slightest movement of my L forefinger. So I started answering with some
incredible lies.
Sent me to Hanoi strapped to a barrel of gas in the back of a truck.
Hanoi ...on my knees. Rope trick again. Beaten by a big fool.
Into leg irons on a bed in Heartbreak Hotel.
Much kneeling--hands up at Zoo.
Really bad beating for refusing to condemn Lyndon Johnson.
Several more kneeling events. I could see my knee bone thru kneeling holes.
There was an escape from the annex to the Zoo. I was the Senior Officer of a
large building because of escape. They started a mass torture of all commanders.
I think it was July 7, 1969...they started beating me with a car fan belt. In
first 2 days I took over 300 strokes. Then stopped counting because I never
thought I would live thru it.
They continued day-nite torture to get me to confess to a non-existent part in
the escape. This went on for at least 3 days. On my knees. Fan belting.... cut
open my scrotum with fan belt stroke. Opened up both knee holes again. My fanny
looked like hamburger. I could not lie on my back.
They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape and that my 2
room-mates knew about it.
The next day I denied the lie.
They commenced torturing me again with 3- 6- or 9 strokes of the fan belt every
day from about July 11 or 12rh...to 14 October 1969. I continued to refuse to
lie about my roommates again.
Now, the point of this is that our make-believe president has declared to the
world that we ( U.S. ) are a bunch of torturers... Thus it will be OK to torture
us next time when they catch us....because that is what the U.S. does.
Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks that pouring a
little water on some one's face, or hanging a pair of womens pants over an Arabs
head is TORTURE. He is a meathead.
I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness who was also in my sq in jail.... as
was John McCain ... and we agree that McCain does not speak for the POW group
when he claims that Al Gharib was torture... or that "water boarding" is
torture.
Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing our great country
are a disgrace to the United States . Please pass this info on to Sean Hannity.
He is free to use it to point out the stupidity of the claims that water
boarding ...which has no after effect... is torture. If it got the Arab to cough
up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin towers in NYC ....
hurrah for the guy who poured the water.
BUD DAY, MOH
George Everett "Bud" Day (born February 24, 1925) is a retired U.S. Air
Force
Colonel and a Command
Pilot who served during the Vietnam
War. He is often cited as being the
most decorated U.S. service member since
General Douglas
MacArthur, having received some
seventy decorations, a majority for actions in combat. Day is a recipient of the
Medal of Honor.
FW: Medal of Honor recipient Bud Day Talks of Torture]
6/24/2009 04:17:00 AM
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Key Words:
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ARABS,
BARACK OBAMA,
VIETNAM WAR
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18 comments:
I think it was June 24, 2009... I started reading an article with the intelligence of a car fan belt. In
first seconds I took over 300 words. Then I stopped reading because I never thought I would live thru it.
I really hope this is not actually attributable to an actual vet. If so it is sad that a man can go through that and then be so pathetically dense as to not understand that water-boarding is torture.
What is written (regarding water-boarding)in this "article" shows an astounding level of ignorance. A level only a right wing fucktard can achieve.
As long as someone in the world has endured worse punishment, nothing less can ever be considered torture.
But by golly, it hurts every time someone thinks waterboarding is the only torture technique we've ever used, even after we couldn't release a bunch of photos because they would've stirred up enough anti-American sentiment to endanger our troops in Iraq.
"They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape and that my 2 room-mates knew about it.
The next day I denied the lie."
So let me get this straight, torture is an effective method of intelligence gathering? Got it.
McCain always said when he was tortured he gave the starting line up of the Green Bay Packers to his interrogators. We praise him for this. How do we know they are not doing the same thing?
Yes, Bud Day is a Medal of Freedom awardee, and yes, Bud Day was probably tortured in Viet Nam. Thank you, Mr. Day, for your service to our country at that time.
However, this tool is a hack. He was part of the infamous "Swift Boat Veterans for 'truth'" brigade who disgracefully & wrongfully attacked John Kerry, among other pernicious activities.
Just bc he DID sacrifice for our country in no way exhonerates him from lying. As this screed indicates, he is in league w/ the "big boys" like the coward Sean Hannity, who ALSO claimed that waterboarding was nothing more than a fraternity prank, but was too much of a scaredy cat to have it done to himself.
Bud Day has been on my shite list for a long, long time, but again: NOTE how this is done. Bud Day did serve our country bravely AT ONE TIME, but NOW he picks and chooses what constitutes "torture" just so that it meets some POLITCAL end and hostilely accuses BHO as being "illegitmate" as POTUS.
Bud Day is no better than the Viet Cong who tortured him, and he should hang his head in shame for selling the USA down the river like this.
Please spare me such "war heros." They are not worthy of respect now.
I'm quite sure that an Iraqi prisoner had his own genitals cut open recently, as part of his interrogation. And after WW2, Japanese soldiers were put to death for waterboarding their own prisoners. Is this man suggesting those Japanese soldiers were put to death for no good reason? I suppose it doesn't count, though, since they're not proper white anglophones. Just because he was tortured himself, it doesn't mean he has any right to say "only what was done to me constitutes torture, and only X and Y have been done to these other people". He doesn't get a free pass to say anything he pleases and to lie indiscriminately.
Agree to all above, and yes, it's interesting that Bud Day comments that he lied to the Viet Cong when they tortured him (of course, whatever happened to this narcissist is "real torture," but what happens to Gitmo detainees doesn't "count" bc those towel-heads are pussies or something).
So, yeah: whether one calls it "torture" or calls it "ehanced interrogation," it doesn't work bc everyone lies anyway...
Duh. Bud Day learned to lie when the Viet Cong tortured him, and he continues to lie to this day. Behold the unhero...
My favorite comments on waterboarding, from a self-professed tough guy who gets shattered by the experience, as he's able to give a pretty good description of how it works:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717
As for this forward, I have no doubt that several veterans were beaten within an inch of their lives, and I'm sorry they had to suffer that, especially since we never should have sent them there and we never should have neglected them when they came home.
BUT, a key point of this guy's story is that he never, ever gave his torturers useful information. He's arguing that waterboarding is okay because it's not really torture, but if even real torture doesn't produce results, what does he think waterboarding will do?
Us dirty commie liberals are arguing that we shouldn't torture for three reasons: 1) it hurts our standing in the world and gives the enemy a recruitment tool, 2) it's inhumane and we shouldn't do it on principle, and 3) it doesn't work. This guy attempted to refute point two and only proved point three in the process.
He's a Swift Boat smear merchant.
'Nuff said.
Money quote from that post I linked to:
"So, is it torture? I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question."
Hybryd: in response to your first post (and 2d one): Yes! Exactly. Thank you.
Shameless hypocrit; liar; b.s. artist, etc.
But watch how it's done: the right has bought this liar's b.s. time & again and justified it bc Bud Day is a "certfied war hero" who was tortured for all of our sins.
Bleah. I give this guy a big old Bronx cheer...
Well, I'm glad to see that torturing Bud Day was such a fruitful, intelligence-producing activity. I can only hope that we can get half as much useful information from the Guantanamo detainees than we get from this guy.
"Next day hung me by the arms...rebroke my right wrist...wiped out the nerves in
my arms that control the hands."
"Much kneeling--hands up at Zoo. "
"Several more kneeling events. I could see my knee bone thru kneeling holes. "
So I see you don't think waterboarding constitutes torture, Mr. Day. How about stress positions? Or is only torture when the wogs do it to us and not the other way round?
Amazing the amount of disrespect this MOH winner shows for both our Commander in Chief (calling him a make believe president) and for a fellow veteran and torture survivor, Senator McCain.
Almost as amazing is how idiotic this letter is. Obama declared to the world that we are torturers? Um, no. We were already torturers. We knew it, the world knew it, and it was a shameful mark against us which did nothing but add to our list of enemies and endanger our citizens.
Obama told the world that we are no longer torturers, that we were sorry for our mistake and won't repeat them. This is a good thing.
Response to last post: agreed that it is a good thing that Obama admitted to the world that we are torturers and that we are sorry, etc.
Of course, the GOP immediately went into hyper-drive about how HORRID that was, and that NOBama is a secrety muzlinkeynanbirther, etc. And even the less nutty amongst them were saying: BHO's made real 'murkins "less safe," etc.
It is really pernicious.
And yes, I also agree that Bud Day does not represent a true hero by dissing the POTUS and even by dissing Senator McCain.
What IS it with these people???
I can only say; Thank God we had Bud Day and others like him serving our country. His sacrifice paved the way for you "forward thinking" cowards to share your ignorance with the world. Your support of an unknown, unproven politician that so far has done nothing but spend money, over that of a true war hero proves that you have NO idea of what real freedom and patriatism is. Shame on you and shame on your parents for not teaching you to think for yourselves!
A true hero? Thank you for serving our country, but you received the medal of honor for getting the shit beat out of you, then escaping then after recapture getting the shit beat out of you again? Where's the honor in that? Did you save lives? I got the shit beat out of me every day in Middle school. Was that not torture? I didn't get a medal. A real hero is not political. He's the guy still in the VA, not outspoken (prob doesn't even mention the war or the lives he saves), looking at the self proclaimed heroes and shaking his head. Mr. Bud doesn't have the most medals. He's the one who has the most medals in the politicians pockets. Mr. Bud I salute your need to be seen, I salute your need to be non-patriotic speaking of our democratically picked president, I salute the fact that you need to spread the hardships you've endured on others.
We are better than those other countries. The ones that do torture. We need to hold ourselves in a higher regard, so yes if our boys are torturing people (even if it is just making them wear lipstick that clashes with their eye color) reprimands need to be made.
On a last note: Know who used propaganda too? Hitler.
A rose by any other name . . .
Has anybody else noticed that the negative comments come from worthless POS who don't even have the courage to put their own name to the comment?
Piss on the entire lot of you, having been a student of the military's SERE course I can assure you that water boarding is a walk in the park compared to what Col. Day endured.
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